I have to break from part two of my series on whether “Church Marketing is a Sin” to rant about how Christianity in America has become a highly lucrative business. Check out the current list of church conferences on the calendar this year (and this isn’t all of them):
- Healing Place Church Experience (have I ever said how sick I am of hearing the word experience and church together?)
- Unleash 2008
- Q (very short name I’d say but at least this looks like it actually has a bigger purpose)
- Orange: We hope you will join us this year for an authentic, dangerous and UNCENSORED experience! (Does this mean they’ll drop the F-Bomb?)
- Coast 2 Coast
- Externally Focused Conference: Transform your community. Transform your life. Hmmm…
- The White Board Sessions: You can get a whiteboard for under $20 at Staples.
PLUS, and I love this one…I can spend two days following the Senior Management Team of Granger Community Church for a cool $1,500.00 to get an inside look at how they do ministry. Are you really serious?!?
Please understand that I do not mean to sound harsh towards any of the people or their teams presenting at these conferences. I personally only know one presenter out of all of them (who has an ego the size of Texas) but I am sure that most of their hearts are for helping others build the Kingdom. I also ask Jesus for forgiveness in that this may not be the most Christ-like post or way to communicate my feeling about this topic. However my question is this:
Do we really need all these conferences to tell us how these leaders do their ministry or how to be effective at ours?
I don’t know whether it’s a conviction of the Spirit or common sense but it grieves me to think at how much money will be spent to attend and hear these speakers. I did some number crunching based off of an average on each conferences fees and the number of attendees they allow or “guestimate” based off the size or speakers at the event.
My very rough calculation = $2,185,940.00. That’s over two million dollars not including airfare, hotel, meals, and the “I was there” t-shirt.
Do we really need to spend over two million dollars to follow teams around for a day and watch how they interact with each other or to have churches who have been blessed with great growth tell us how “they” did it? Is it worth going to another conference to hear about another innovation, theory, or technique that may or may not work for our individual situation – or one that a church staff will never implement because they’re still working on the method from last year’s conference?
I know of many church planters who have been called to plant in their community who are doing a great work but are struggling because of financial support. I see people in my city who can’t afford a hot meal or warm place to sleep for one night. I know of single mothers who are working at least two jobs just to feed their children and keep the electricity on. I could mention the fact that some “on-fire” Christian leaders give more to buying conference tickets, books, and lattes than sending support to missionaries who look death in the eye every day for fulfilling the Great Commission.
I pray that church leaders, their teams, and congregations will wake up and realize that “the Church” has become just like corporate America. We have been blessed way beyond our dreams and we are now taking advantage of it. We talk of being missional yet some of us can’t even break beyond the missional motivation speech. Shame on us! American prosperity has definitely been a curse.
How about we spend more time in prayer, fasting, serving in our community, and listening to the hurt of others over spending more money on an expensive trip to tell us how we might do it and give it to better causes? And I point this to myself – an addicted lover of books and technology. Maybe it’s time to just go out and do it and learn for ourselves. After all, experience is the best teacher and Jesus Christ the best leader we could follow.
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Great post… I agree.
Thanks Kenneth!
The bottom line is that the Bible doesn’t really talk about this so it isn’t a sin. But as to if we need them or not, I think they can be excellent tools for people wondering how others do ministry. I go to Healing Place Church and I don’t know what goes on exactly at the HPC Experience, but I’m sure they get to see an inside look to how we serve the poor, give free medical care to the uninsured, we do water giveaways, gum giveaways, we have awesome services, homeless outreaches, youth services and all kinds of things going on. So exposing that to someone else doesn’t seem like a bad thing to me. Maybe I’m just biased because I attend Healing Place and I don’t particularly like it when people bash my church home.
-Phill
Phil,
Thanks for commenting! I am not saying that Christian conferences are a sin and am not bashing Healing Place or any of the other churches for offering conferences. Please know that.
[Now I will take shots at church terminology and the use of 'church experience' or 'worship experience' because it's just stupid and if we are manufacturing an experience like some churches discuss then we leave the Holy Spirit out of it which makes church an hour of entertainment.]
My post simply deals with the absurdity that Christians are paying huge sums of money to go hear motivational speeches, how to workshops that will be obsolete next week, or to follow a team around to learn how they do things. Paying a church to see how they do ministry – seems arrogant to me and the money could be used for better things.
I believe that some conferences have value but the trend I have noticed over the last couple of years is that some Christian leaders and their teams place more emphasis on receiving instruction from “the guru” than on spiritual disciplines (or Scripture) that can be more beneficial to their church. Mark Driscoll preached a sermon on worship and how believers can commit idolatry simply by placing their emphasis on a worship style or technique. I think this applies to how some “church groupies” idolize the speaker and conferences.
An example is one of these speakers I have met and seen personally. He has let people idolizing him go to his head. He even told a church planting buddy that he couldn’t provide him consulting because the church planter “couldn’t afford him”. That’s a whole other topic though…
My main beef is that these guys and gals who put on the gigs learned by getting their hands dirty. If we would do the same and take the millions of dollars spent on going to these conferences and invest them in our churches or communities, we could do some mighty things. We don’t need the workshops and techniques of other churches to be successful – we need to focus on Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit to direct our ministries. We don’t need to follow a team from another church when we can go out and listen to the needs of the people in our city. I am convinced that if we spent more time in prayer and less time reading ministry books that our nation could be rocked!
There is a fine line between casting stones and speaking the truth in love. I think it’s awfully irresponsible of you to name names of people whom you do not know except by the simple fact that they have a conference or experience or whatever, and pretend to not be bashing them. I hope that no one judges you by the same standards you have used to carelessly throw these people under the bus.
You are right in that it’s possible that the people you’re naming have learned their lessons through hard work and getting their hands dirty. But it’s also true that using someone’s experience and failures to save yourself some failure and pain might not be too bad of an idea. Whether or not the costs for these types of things is a waste of money is really hard to tell if you have no working knowledge of the situation. I guess that’s why judging the hearts of men is God’s job and not ours.
@ “X” – Thank you for your comments and your feedback.
I named no names but merely presented a list of conferences that I have received information about. The list is NOT a “witch hunt” for these particular conferences or their presenters. And I did not say the people, staff, or communicators of these conferences suck, are heretics, or should be burned at the stake. I do think that some of the hype associated with a couple of them is unnecessary and that some Christian church leaders (through communication – by talking to them personally, reading their blogs, or listening to their podcasts) strongly appear to idolize some of the top communicators which is clearly wrong.
BTW – I have the utmost respect for some of these outstanding and gifted communicators (Darrin Patrick, Louie Giglio, Tim Keller) and I judge them not for presenting their awesome insights. I don’t think what they are doing is wrong in any way. My complaint is how the “Christian Industry” has become and what is coming from some of these situations.
Yes, I agree that we can learn lessons from all kinds of people; through their successes and their failures. It’s a great strategy but sometimes we also must get spit on, be flogged, be ridiculed, or take a shot for Jesus. We, as Americans, are guilty of wanting to get through the hard stuff at times without any pain or suffering. We want the easy Christianity without the mess. That’s another story.
Let me ask you these questions. Did Paul put on conferences and charge a fee for sharing his successes and failures to the early church? Did Jesus say “all of you come to me and I will give you rest and insight for $99, but if you get to the olive tree early it’s only $79? Did the Disciples charge Timothy to hang out with them for a day to learn the ropes?
I understand that there are costs involved with events but would it be just as effective to provide a DVD created in house for a lower cost, a free podcast with the information, or a free PDF book download on a website? Just a thought.
Yeah I didn’t think you were, it just kinda sounded that way. No animosity (sp?) here. I understand your viewpoint, but you know, nobody’s perfect. Sorry if I came off as defensive, we are all on the same side.
-Phill
It troubles me as well how some Christians have adopted a corporate model in the way we carry out ministry. At the same time, I suspect you would find business conferences covering similar topics to be even more expensive.
Nonetheless, we would do well as a Church to simply opt out of such worldly ways and stick to doing ministry as Jesus did.
I am reminded of the news show “The Fleecing of America” and I suspect that many churches resort to doing things the way the world does in an effort to grow their ministry, at the expense of true ministry. I also feel that far too many churches go to conferences held by bigger and more “successful” churches in order to figure out their own church ministry model. I believe that is all right too, if that is a genuine leading from the Lord. However, many church leaders have the mistaken belief that if their church is small and limited in funds, that some how they are doing something wrong, but the fact of the matter is that may be exactly what God intends for that body of believers. On the other hand I do believe that God can use these conferences to help get churches on track for His purposes. The bottom line is we have to look at the motive of all concerned. In God’s economy, that is all that matters, why are we doing what we are doing. If the motive for anything is to serve God and advance the kingdom, then a big expensive conference is in order, anything other than that is, well, just wrong.
As a Christian and an intern at HPC, I know one thing: the way HPC does ministry will not be obsolete next week, next month, or the next millenium. You know nothing of what the experience is (inner-city outreaches, services, behind-the-scene coordination) yet say you are sick of what that word means. I appreciate your viewpoint, but slapping a label on anything based on preconceptions is exactly what secular marketing would have done.
@ Phill – I guess some of my sarcastic comments after the name of conferences would give a negative impression but that’s my sense of humor that obviously cannot always be read through a blog. : )
And you’re right – if we are for Jesus we are on the same side. There are things theologically that we as Christians will have to agree to disagree on to a point and that’s OK too.
@Pistol Pete – Thanks for your feedback and I agree.
@ Andrew – It amazes me how defensive some of the comments from HPC people are, especially when I am not knocking them personally. And I never said what they are doing would be obsolete…please read my post again.
My complaint is against how so many churches have started using the word “experience” instead of church or worship or Sunday service as if they are ashamed to call it what it is or to keep the wording palatable to unChristians. I feel the same way about churches who jumped on the “we are an authentic, postmodern, relevant church” verbiage.
My thought on the word is not a preconception because I have watched and participated in some of the foolish trends churches are on. I have personal evidence in my own life. It would be further agreeable to a majority of the people I have talked with that don’t go to church. They also say a church should call things for what it really is.
Anyways, It’s the way I see it and you can take it or leave it.
@ schierling – thanks for your comments and these are great points!
This was my first time on your site. I was impacted by your impressions on this topic. The first thing that struck me was that you seem like a very educated person. By the words you speak, how well your site is laid out and even by the topics that are on your site here tells me that you are educated. I would dare say that you have likely recieved a college degree and spent some serious money attaining that education that allows you to do the great job that you do for the kingdom. I personally, recieved a 2 year college degree in Biblical training. It really did not prepare me to do the job that I am now doing for the kingdom. I have attended 2 major innovative type conferences over the last year and I was like a sponge soaking in every speaker and topic! Through those conferences, I believe we as a church were able to reach more people in our area, I was able to attain resources for free for our church that could be used for ministry. I learned creative tools that has helped our members step into ministry using their gifts. I spent realistically $1000.00 to attend these conferences and yes I had lattes and spent money on books and cds on the speakers topics. But what I gained in knowledge from these was far more than the nearly $25,0000 that I was required to spend on college for a 2 year degree that laid a foundation but did not really equip me with the tools I needed .
I appreciate the fresh perspective… iron sharpens iron. However, I think the church is called to stay relevant and relatable and the workers in the kingdom need opportunities to be feed at a level that challenges them to raise the bar for Christ. I also recognize that for a church to put on these major training events that it is a sacrifice on their staff and resources. I am most grateful for those who are willing to share with us their knowledge. The secular world is out to keep their “secrets” and knowledge so that they can get ahead of one another.. The church sets itself apart in that we are willing to share what it knows works and does not. I think that is exactly what Jesus modeled for us.
Mr. Dalman,
I’m sorry first of all. I hadn’t thoroughly read the post and so I didn’t fully understand. I, like Phill and Andrew, attend Healing Place and when I heard your opinion it made me angry. Also, you and I posted our comments at the same time on Josh-bob’s blog so I did not have the chance to read it before I commented. I just think that if you were not meaning to point out my church or any church, you shouldn’t have made that list. I don’t want to have a deffensive comment but I just don’t think you can say much about what HPC conferences are about. Just because we use the word ‘experience’ gives no one any right to compare us or side us with other churchs. That is why you get to choose your church, because all have different ways of doing things. Please, I appologized for my words, don’t take mine as something personal that is just the way I feel. After all, isn’t that why you put up a comment box…to have people post their opinion?
@LJ – Welcome and thanks for stopping by! I appreciate your comments and feedback as well.
Unfortunately I am not one who finished college (and barely high school) because of my old lifestyle of addictions and lack of motivation. Everything I have learned has been by God’s blessing, many sufferings, self-teaching, and much reading. I graduated from the School of Hard Knocks.
I agree with what you are saying about that we can learn from conferences and others – and it really can be more beneficial than any college or seminary training. I am going to write another post that may clear up what I intended to say here in this post. I do believe conferences and seminars have value. What is bothering me is the way some Christians are approaching it now and how some leaders have placed more emphasis on the teaching of a man than that of Scripture or getting their hands dirty.
All in all I believe what you wrote is right on…except the fact that I am educated – but I really appreciate the comment!
Carly – It’s all good and thanks for posting your thoughts here, which is the reason for comment boxes. I don’t feel everyone or anyone has to agree with me in any way. I just share what is on my heart and mind and let it go where it goes.
I can definitely see where many of the people offering these conferences may feel that I was attacking them personally or singling them out over a huge crowd – which was not my motive. I also do not intend to compare HPC to other churches who use the word “experience”. Rather, my comment has to do with my sarcastic humor and displeasure at how many churches use this term for worship, church, or whatever.
In a way, I do have a right to call it how see it – or compare churches. It doesn’t mean that I am right or may do it in the best of ways, but even Jesus made comparisons and if we are to imitate Christ then would we as Christians have the right to share our thoughts on what we feel may or may not be edifying to “The Church?”
Ok I see now. I guess it just being my church, it made me a little upset. Although, I do see your side. Thank you for responding to my comment and I’m sorry if I came over in a horrible way. I guess we all were put on this Earth as different as we are to share and sometimes debate with one another.It is your givin right to share your thoughts. Have fun blogging, and just remember…JESUS LOVES U!!!!!
Carly,
No worries and I really do appreciate your passion and enthusiasm for HPC! I love to see people who are on fire for Jesus and their church – the world needs more of that – and Jesus loves you too! Peace.
I have enjoyed reading your thoughts on church conferences as well as the replies to your post. I think one of your replies touches on the issue but not stongly enough when he indicts the christian church culture of today of embracing the business model as a viable means to “doing church”. I have had experience with many who feel that this model is THE way to build a church community and have adopted similar practices to do so. This leads to “success” in terms of numbers, fundraising, resources but leaves the congregation in dire need of real connectivity to the church itself unless they are actually a part of the staff. Churches have gone from allowing members to conduct the business of the church to relying on paid staff to accomplish this while being little more than passive participants in the process. Consumerism in churches is so rampant it seems that it is the norm and all else off the mark. These conferences are just symptoms of the true problem as they market to those who buy into this model.
Hey man,
I only skimmed over the article and some of the feed back yuo recieved. I just want to say sorry for all of the negitave feed back and that I attend HPC. By no way have we mastered ministry or anything else. We constantly visit other Churches to see how they do ministry. And to see the effectiveness of what they do.
I just want to ask one question. Have you ever attended a HPC service? If not you should come check us out!
@ Wil – Thanks for the feedback! I think there can be a huge concentration on “doing church” as we would a business and this is can lead to problems in the church. Learning from businesses and even conferences isn’t wrong; it’s when we place our trust more in the way of men than the way of Jesus. I guess the main reason for my post was that I am upset at how many church leaders (from big and small churches) seem to do this…elevating people who have “made it” to a god-like status.
@ Eddie – Please know it’s not anything with HPC and I think this may have come across as throwing a stone at them. My post has to do with conferences in general and the attitude (as stated above) that some church peeps get by idolizing the presenters, the methods, or the technology. I have no beef against any of these conferences from a personal stand point. I just pray that more Christians would follow Jesus and not the church rock stars. Maybe I’ll drop in some day – as long as no one body slams me!
LOL.
Whether a person goes to a church help conference or not I think basically depends on them. Every conference basically has it’s price. Some more extreme then others. But the individual has to evaluate if it is worth paying the price to attend.
During the time of Jesus people traveled from all over to come and hear him. Granted they did not pay an entry fee but I do think it is Biblical. If we think that it will help us why not? Yes it is true that people all over the world have good works and do not go to conferences. But the question is if they could would they? I think any respective ministry that is looking to do their best for God is open to the idea that they do not know everything and seek outside of their immediate surroundings to learn.
I completely agree in the abstince of the motivational seminar approach but don’t agree with throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Thanks for the post.